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Post by asiaticdarkperson on Jan 8, 2013 9:51:15 GMT -5
I think I've got a hold of a thread, in regards our collective depression.
I've been watching my little cousin's behavior here, and it really scares me. He's probably like 20 years old, just finishing his third (or fifth) semester in university and he's definitely going through a mild psychosis compared to how he was last year. Since I've been here I've seen him argue (very loudly) with his mom over issues directly or indirectly related to money countless times already. He asks his parents for money to buy some crap literally every day. Today it's shoes, tomorrow it's pants, new cell-phone, new laptop, new sound system for his car, expensive hair-cut, present for his girlfriend, etc etc ad infinitum.
Lately, he's been trying to convince them to sell his car (it's not really his, they just let him drive it.) and buy a cheaper car instead, so he can have a couple grand pocket money to spend. It seems like all he can think about, and all he can ever talk about is money and crap that he wants to buy. And he's not unique. All his friends and peers are no different. In fact, I believe he is getting this vibe, this influence from society as a whole, where everyone is suffering from this same insanity. If you take a walk down the street where I live, there's so much "shiny" shit behind the store windows that all you wanna do is buy, buy, buy! have, have, have! Or if you're like me (I've got the stomach of an ostrich) then eat, eat, eat!
First, there's so much shit to have in the city, and second, there's so many people who all want, want, want. It's an insane cycle. People spend hours each day thinking about all the things they want, then they spend the rest of the day trying to achieve them. So, when do they ever have time to do anything else??
And right now with the shitty economy, only the higher classes keep getting most of the things they want. For a middle- or lower-class person in Tehran, life is spent in a state of perpetual dissatisfaction over not being able to get the things they want.
For me it's so much simpler in the desert, where there is nothing to buy. And no one is trying to sell you crap that you don't need. There are no enormous companies trying without rest to figure out how to make you buy compulsively, out in the desert. And it seems that makes all the difference in the world.
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Post by grainnerhuad on Jan 9, 2013 14:15:16 GMT -5
We as humans have lost touch with our natural state, which really requires little. I think in the desert or the mountains or anyplace where the pace is set by nature and there is work to do that isn't "busy-work" I mean work to feed yourself, care for the land, exercise, etc. We automatically feel less need for trinkets.
But in a rat race we NEED trinkets. It distracts the psyche from how un-natural it is behaving.
Just my immediate thoughts, but I notice these trends here in the U.S. too.
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Post by The Late Mitchell Warren on Jan 18, 2013 8:08:53 GMT -5
Good question and answer here....I suppose we do need the little things in life. Perhaps 80% of life is distraction, and 20% the "truth" about humanity, god, the universe, etc. Unfortunately for me, I've lived 80% truth and 20% distraction. And now my life fucking sucks. But that could just be because my wife left me.
But don't worry about me, Shh, she's coming back soon...
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Post by asiaticdarkperson on Jan 19, 2013 12:49:45 GMT -5
I try to keep distraction to a minimum. To give you a taste, I've been wearing the same pair of jeans for like 5-6 years now. I wore the last one until it was absolutely torn to bits. I had a pair of sneakers that I wore in the desert and in the city for years, until last year when it became totally un-wearable. So, I bought a new pair, and I'm hoping to go at least a few more years with it. Other than the sneakers, I really can't remember the last time I bought anything for my self. (food not included) I don't feel my life is "fucked up" or lacking in any way because I don't have "trinkets." If my life is fucked up it's because I'm a moron. (not referring to you Mitch) I'm gonna put my foot down (or in my mouth?) and say that buying anything that is not essential to one's survival and health is stupid and a needless waste. And stupidity kills. I don't care if it makes people feel better and or they like it, it's stupid and people are clueless. People like sex, people like alcohol, people enjoy wasting their time, it's all stupid...and people are imbeciles. (present company excluded, of course )
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Post by The Late Mitchell Warren on Jan 19, 2013 16:22:29 GMT -5
Yes, I suppose i have lived the Faith lifestyle before, self-denial, suffering for the grace of God, etc. It's only been in recent years that I've allowed drugs to penetrate my mind and distract me. Was I happier when I was in self-denial? I suppose so...but my mind is far too expanded to go back to blind faith. And if I believe in nothing, (no god, no universal force, etc.) then I think it's a waste I don't entertain myself as much as possible before the big fade out.
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Post by asiaticdarkperson on Jan 20, 2013 1:08:55 GMT -5
I don't live a "faith" lifestyle. I don't _believe_ in god, or any other religious nonsense.
I just try to keep my eyes open, and live smart. Why would I buy ten pairs of shoes when I only need one?? What does this have to do with self-denial and the grace of god? (There is no god! There is just an infinite flow of energy. Trust me, I've seen it.)
Self-denial and suffering is for clueless idiots. I don't deny myself anything. How could I when life is so short? And I don't suffer. I struggle, like a man at war. And I steer clear of all of society's pointless crap.
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Post by The Late Mitchell Warren on Jan 24, 2013 17:52:37 GMT -5
Like is short...I guess I'm old school Christian...in that I think, if Life is ultimately meaningless I ought to just be a rapist-slut like my primal ancestors and enjoy it. I don't really buy all that cock-science talk of "Humans invented morality." Gimme a break. I have never EVER seen a human being capable of compassion that didn't learn it from something, whether dead religion, parents (of a dead religion) or principles invented by folklore. We're all basically animalistic men and cant be trusted
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Post by karlsie on Jan 25, 2013 21:57:14 GMT -5
Compassion is an emotion, and I don't believe emotions are "learned". They are part of our natural make-up. If we are basically animalistic, what triggered the first human to decide compassion was a desirable trait? Why would humans strive for an ideal that is neither comfortable nor advantageous to an animalistic drive to simply eat, find shelter and procreate? Not a single scientific experiment has been able to recreate the spark of life. All life-achieving events have been duplicated, synthesized, borrowed from existing cells of life. None of these artificial events have been perfect. They have degenerated quickly, were not able to procreate or resulted in dangerous bacteria.
Life is meaningless only if you decide there should not have been any form of creation at all; no stars, no planets, no chemicals oddly blending to build constructs, not even gravity - only a void. The facts remain that stars did appear, planets split from those initial fiery leaps of balled up chemicals, other molecules bonded to form waters and solids, and "favorable conditions" initiated that mysterious spark we call life. The void is meaningless because it doesn't exist.
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Post by grainnerhuad on Jan 26, 2013 18:44:17 GMT -5
I believe "nothing" doesn't exist. I also believe compassion is not an emotion but an action that we must chose to put into play.
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Post by sh on Jan 28, 2013 3:30:10 GMT -5
I think compassion is the exact same thing as self-pity. And self-pity is just another word for self-importance. I think compassion is a mental disease, an energetic drainage. To put it simply, I don't feel sorry for my self, so how could I feel sorry for someone else?
I think empathy is an authentic emotion. (as opposed to sympathy)
For me there is no doubt that all compassion is a sham, if you dig deep enough and uncover its roots, all you will find is self-pity. So, I guess I'm with Mitch on this one.
What does this have to do with anything anyway?
And Mitch, you sound really depressed dude. I can't feel sorry for you because you're a grown man and you're responsible for your own actions and their outcome, but I do feel sad that you're sad.
The guy I mentioned in the other thread...according to himself, he lost his American wife and his daughter because he was unfaithful countless times. He says he slept with pretty much every good looking woman that ever walked into his bars. He said, and I quote, "I fucked girls whose names I didn't even know." He says everyone in town knew, except his wife. His friends even joked with him in a pleading tone not to sleep with their wives. He says he was so rich that "everything was permitted" (to quote Hasan i Sabbah) -- of course he never did fuck his friends' wives, but that doesn't mean they didn't want to sleep with him. Anyway, when his wife finally found out, she was so humiliated that she took their daughter and left. He hasn't seen or spoken to his daughter for years. He had a tear in his eye as he spoke of his daughter, who is married now. I told him he could get in touch with her via facebook, but he replied that he's afraid she won't recognize or accept him as her "dad."
So you know, should I feel sorry for this poor poor man who fucked hundreds of women before he lost his marriage? Or did he get what he deserved? I tend to think people always get what they deserve, and that makes me wonder how anyone could deny that there is in fact meaning and intelligence at work behind the scenes?
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Post by The Late Mitchell Warren on Jan 28, 2013 17:17:08 GMT -5
My guess Shh is that you must be a relatively young man. What I deal with is the depression that comes from aging, from change occurring and from lost opportunity. I do believe people are responsible for their actions. I suppose I could argue that my life has been morally perfect in some ways...(more on this with my book Attempted Rapture) but I still don't feel happy about living a good life. Go figure. Maybe I'm a depressive personality...but at least I have a fucking job unlike everyone in Florida. LOL Sorry, I can't resist...everyone I know from Florida is unemployed and on welfare.
I agree, people do get what they deserve. Of course, I do have compassion for people--even "bad" people who make bad moral choices. (So your theory about compassion isn't true, SHH. I can feel bad for someone even if I would never do what they do. I feel sorry for Adolph Hitler in some ways. Sorry for President Bush and Osama Bin Laden. There are very few people I don't feel sorry for. Then again, that doesn't mean I would give my life for them or protest the consequences of their actions.
I am also for the death penalty, in some cases where there is no doubt. I would sit down and cry with a person and let that person know that this is restitution for what they have done to someone else.
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Post by sh on Jan 29, 2013 1:23:24 GMT -5
Feeling bad for the misfortune and suffering of other people, is not compassion afaic. I feel sad for the horrendous condition of people in general. I believe we should be living in a perfect society by now, and I believe people could be strong and independent, and it pains me beyond words to see humanity so wretched.
But I don't feel sorry for anyone.
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Post by grainnerhuad on Jan 29, 2013 18:20:06 GMT -5
I don't think of compassion in terms of "feeling sorry" for some one. If that is how you are viewing the word, we are talking about two different things.
I suppose Empathy is a better word. I can put myself in someone else's place and empathize, but I do not feel sorry for their choices. How could I? I didn't make them.
It is in this way that I understand what Mitch is saying. I can see if things had gone differently with say, Hitler...or George W.Bush, how their lives would have been different, they would have hurt less people and felt better about themselves. That loss is a sad thing. But I am not sorry for them and their respective fates.
Do you see the difference? Does that make sense?
As for depression, Yes I know that this happens and it is not merely a "weakness" nor is it a fact of growing older. Many people grow old and never experience it. Many people struggle all their lives with it. It is mostly a chemical imbalance in an individual's neurons. This can be caused by nature but is mostly caused by circumstance. Our life circumstances changes how our brains and bodies perform. Whether this is due to our family refrences, trauma, or chemicals, or any other number of things it matters not. We cannot be alive without being affected by the choice we make or actions that are beyond our choice but still enacted upon us.
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Post by sh on Jan 30, 2013 5:18:27 GMT -5
Do you see the difference? Does that make sense? Yes, I see. It's the difference between empathy and sympathy. Grainne, I believe the only real power we have is the power to oppose the forces of our lives. Without that, what are we? Feathers in the wind? I understand there are forces beyond our control that act on us that decide our path; this is what I call fate. For example, my fate brought me where I am today. i.e. Living in the middle of nowhere, with none of the basic "necessities" of modern life, and with 4000 enemies who, really, want to kill me. The conditions I live in are "horrid" to quote the rural people who live nearby. My friends and family _can't_ stay with me for one night; they really can't, and they never have. I don't want to get into details, but I want you to understand that my living conditions are only slightly better than those of neolithic man. But I don't resent my fate. I accept it, and work from there. I know that I have no other option but to struggle, to really fight. I can't feel depressed or offended by my fate. I MUST embrace it, love it, because it is my lot in life, for good or for bad. Trust me, if someone is depressed, it is nobody's fault but their own; chemicals and neurons and all that mumbo jumbo is just BS IMO. The spirit is not so cruel as to subject people to awful conditions for kicks, especially people who know it well; with them, the spirit is gentle and kind. To quote Christian Bale in that last terminator movie: "There is no fate, but what we make." Face life with the proper spirit; with strength, and with joy, and life will be awesome and wonderful, I promise. But act like a weak fool in the face of the inconceivable, unfathomable, the mysterious and beautiful world that's out there, and you will be duely rewarded with a life of agony and suffering: just what the religious idiots of our time are seeking for themselves and for everyone else. Here's to a life of pain and misery, for all mankind, courtesy of the one, the only, God.
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Post by sh on Jan 30, 2013 6:10:06 GMT -5
Oh, and another thing. It is absolutely none of my business what other people do. I don't have the time or the energy to feel one way or another about the actions of a bunch of imbeciles with no respect for the wonder of being alive. Hitler? George W. Bush? Who gives a fuck? I live _my_ life, and I don't give a damn what other people do. Sure, I can empathize with all people. Not just that, I like to think I can empathize with animals and plants and the earth too. I can even empathize with stones and salmon. But my question still stands, what does this have to do with anything?! I don't give a rat's ass about the misfortunes of anyone. But I feel sad for the plight of man, the wretched. And I will lend him a loving, helping hand whenever I can. Not because I feel sorry for him (i.e. compassion) and not because I would like someone to do the same for me one day (i.e. self-pity-compassion) nor because I feel obligated to help those less fortunate than myself (i.e. self-importance-compassion) ...No! I am humbly at their service because they are my brothers and sisters and I love them. And I will do whatever I can -- give my self to them wholly and with a pure heart, with no expectations -- not just for people, but for all living creatures on this beautiful marvellous earth, because I love them from the bottom of my heart. And I love you guys. I wish you nothing but strength and happiness.
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