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Post by karlsie on Jan 30, 2013 9:11:51 GMT -5
The dictionary definition of compassion: to feel sorrow for the troubles and sufferings of others and an urge to do something about it. Sorrow is an emotion. I don't believe any of our emotions are learned ones. We feel our emotions to varying degrees, depending on who we are, environmental factors, experiences, etc. Some people suppress their emotions more than others, or cater to specific emotions, while stifling others.
I think there's a fine line between pity and compassion. You might pity a starving dog and give it a meal, but if you're truly feeling compassionate, you give the dog a home so it won't starve again. I pity many things without feeling moved to do something about it, but if I feel true compassion, I commit myself to the well-being of whoever or whatever is suffering.
Empathy, I think, is another emotion altogether. When we feel empathy, we can imagine ourselves in the same situation. We can see that we would react the same, so we feel empathy; understanding of the person's motivations.
What it has to do with anything, I believe, is simply an illustration of how much we are really all connected. The suffering of another affects us, causes ripples of distress in our own well-being. It's not even a case of reflective self-pity, as sometimes, easing another's distress can be an inconvenience, even a hardship, and the compassion can be a grudging one, but there it is. It won't go away, and there is nothing you can do but grumble because otherwise, all your conscience is going to do is nag, nag, nag.
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Post by sh on Jan 30, 2013 16:14:34 GMT -5
Hey karlsie.
You know, I'm sure the American soldiers that invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, Japan, etc. etc. were all very compassionate human beings. But their compassion didn't stop them from hunting down "Japs" like animals, and spraying poison on the viet cong rainforest (different than ordinary rainforest, exempt from compassion) and all the atrocities that America is famous for. Compassion is all talk IMO. When it's time to act, you will personally see what a sham it is. Remember I said this. Don't give me that hypothetical crap about sick puppies. What about the 7 billion sick people? What about the earth? What about every living creature that is being pushed to extinction because of us? Are you telling me all these scientists that vehemently deny that anything is wrong, aren't compassionate people?
The only thing that can overcome man's mindless cruelty, savagery and stupidity, is love. You will not spray billions of gallons of herbicides on the rainforest if you love the earth. Neither will you kill people, unless it's in self-defense. (not American self-defense; the genuine kind.) And you won't hurt plants and animals either. Just to get some perspective here: humanity is hurting all life on earth, (including its own) just by existing. So, where is this compassion that you're defending? Aren't the oil company execs that are bleeding the Amazon dry, compassionate people? Do you know that there is a continent called Africa? I suppose the white man's compassion is keeping them alive and healthy, right? Aren't the Israelis compassionate? What about the Europeans that wiped out the "Indian dogs" (not people.) while they were stealing their land?
Excuse me while I LMAO.
Please. Give me a fuckin break.
Compassion belongs with Jesus, dead and rotting on a cross. We should leave it there, if we had any sense. But alas..
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Post by grainnerhuad on Jan 30, 2013 16:57:02 GMT -5
"I don't give a rat's ass about the misfortunes of anyone. But I feel sad for the plight of man, the wretched. And I will lend him a loving, helping hand whenever I can. Not because I feel sorry for him (i.e. compassion) and not because I would like someone to do the same for me one day (i.e. self-pity-compassion) nor because I feel obligated to help those less fortunate than myself (i.e. self-importance-compassion) ...No! I am humbly at their service because they are my brothers and sisters and I love them. And I will do whatever I can -- give my self to them wholly and with a pure heart, with no expectations -- not just for people, but for all living creatures on this beautiful marvellous earth, because I love them from the bottom of my heart."
It is this feeling of a (for lack of a better word) pure-er love that I have always equated with compassion. This likely has everything to do with my cultural upbringing and understanding that "compassion is the pure love of Christ".
Now, as an adult I do not believe any of this begins or stops with Christ or anyone else. We are all responsible and should seek to find this place of Love. But our love is culturally limited. We have a hard time I think equating Love appropriately, we tend to think of it as only familial and romantic. Which is why I really would rather think in love as the Greeks did, in more than one term that had different meanings and connotations. Eros, Philos, Storgy and Agape (I leave Mania out because I think it inappropriate as something to ascribe to and rather something that only describes someone's irrational behavior)
What I am saying, is I think we are thinking along the same lines, we have just been using different words to describe that feeling and as I said, I am positive it is because of my background, compassion is the first word that comes to mind.
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Post by grainnerhuad on Jan 30, 2013 18:51:18 GMT -5
You know, I have been thinking more about your statements Shh, on depression and the negation of the reality of it and how you feel chemistry does not necessarily explain it.
But then I was thinking about your use of Ayahuasca and the main components of the psychoactive parts of it which cannot be put into play as a hallucinogen without an MAOI ( in Ayuhuasca it is the B Caapi vine) to facilitate it. If you have received so much in the way of benefit from Ayahuasca, I do not see how you can discount how MAOI's work on the serotonin levels of the brain. It's a re-set for neurons not functioning naturally. Now, I can see where naturally occurring MAOI's such as those that are released causing the DMT containing plants in Ayahuasca are likely way better than those re-produced in chemical labs for mass produced big pharma anti-depressants. I feel that ALL natural occurring remedies from marijuana to opium naturally work better with us because they are natural and bind with our make-up better than synthetic ones.
But how can you reasonably discount that someone may be in need of MAOI's or DMT in their brain while at the same time acknowledging that Ayahuasca is a beneficial experience and in fact recommend it for people experiencing troubles with sleeping and physical ailments as well as feeling down or depressed... in short, disconnected from the "whole"?
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Post by karlsie on Jan 30, 2013 23:25:42 GMT -5
Chemistry is completely involved in our physical make-up, whether we'd like to think in those terms or not. Every single thing, whether a gas, liquid or solid, is made up of elements. The chemical balances or over-balances cause hunger, obesity, mental fatigue, stimulus, an active or inactive immune system, etc., and so on. Our physical and mental health are directly connected. The question, as I see it, is which chemicals actually serve to add clarity to the thought processes and which ones are no more than a suppression of the thoughts to keep them from becoming depressive; which in effect, is artificial happiness. I believe nature is very good at guiding our thoughts to natural conclusions as long as our bodies are healthy and our minds adequately, ie., chemically balanced. The problem is, most people don't trust nature enough to allow it to do its healing. They want instant fixes, instant gratitude, instant success stories. Nature bides its time.
Love, I believe, predisposes compassion. We would not be able to feel the plights or sufferings of others if we didn't care enough to reach out with respect toward their sensitivities. When we love enough, we don't wish to cause harm and are distressed by those whose love is so minimal, they can willfully cause harm to others. We might pity the lost soul so caught up in viciousness, but our compassion is for the victims of great harm. I sincerely hope we can begin to love enough to care for the down-trodden, the suppressed without giving excuses to the suppressors to continue their vicious actions. I honestly don't care how mentally ill a person is who commits viciousness. If the vicious cannot be moved to gentleness by acts of kindness and love, they are a poison, spreading more viciousness and creating more victims. They don't need understanding. They just need to be stopped.
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Post by sh on Jan 31, 2013 1:49:11 GMT -5
"I don't give a rat's ass about the misfortunes of anyone. But I feel sad for the plight of man, the wretched. And I will lend him a loving, helping hand whenever I can. Not because I feel sorry for him (i.e. compassion) and not because I would like someone to do the same for me one day (i.e. self-pity-compassion) nor because I feel obligated to help those less fortunate than myself (i.e. self-importance-compassion) ...No! I am humbly at their service because they are my brothers and sisters and I love them. And I will do whatever I can -- give my self to them wholly and with a pure heart, with no expectations -- not just for people, but for all living creatures on this beautiful marvellous earth, because I love them from the bottom of my heart." It is this feeling of a (for lack of a better word) pure-er love that I have always equated with compassion. This likely has everything to do with my cultural upbringing and understanding that "compassion is the pure love of Christ". Now, as an adult I do not believe any of this begins or stops with Christ or anyone else. We are all responsible and should seek to find this place of Love. But our love is culturally limited. We have a hard time I think equating Love appropriately, we tend to think of it as only familial and romantic. Which is why I really would rather think in love as the Greeks did, in more than one term that had different meanings and connotations. Eros, Philos, Storgy and Agape (I leave Mania out because I think it inappropriate as something to ascribe to and rather something that only describes someone's irrational behavior) What I am saying, is I think we are thinking along the same lines, we have just been using different words to describe that feeling and as I said, I am positive it is because of my background, compassion is the first word that comes to mind. Grainne, How could anyone not love this wonderous, mysterious earth? How could anyone not love every grain of sand, every breath of air here? We have ourselves a beautiful haven, a heaven, here on earth. How anyone could feel anything but awe and love for all that stands on the earth is beyond me. I mean, our life is short! We can't stay here forever. We had the fortune of living together, side by side, with such amazing, extraordinary LIFE. I really don't know what to say. Our spirit has been distorted, corrupted. We've been driven mad. We hate our beautiful world, our own kin. We have no more love, so we have compassion instead. |
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Post by sh on Jan 31, 2013 2:08:47 GMT -5
You know, I have been thinking more about your statements Shh, on depression and the negation of the reality of it and how you feel chemistry does not necessarily explain it. But then I was thinking about your use of Ayahuasca and the main components of the psychoactive parts of it which cannot be put into play as a hallucinogen without an MAOI ( in Ayuhuasca it is the B Caapi vine) to facilitate it. If you have received so much in the way of benefit from Ayahuasca, I do not see how you can discount how MAOI's work on the serotonin levels of the brain. It's a re-set for neurons not functioning naturally. Now, I can see where naturally occurring MAOI's such as those that are released causing the DMT containing plants in Ayahuasca are likely way better than those re-produced in chemical labs for mass produced big pharma anti-depressants. I feel that ALL natural occurring remedies from marijuana to opium naturally work better with us because they are natural and bind with our make-up better than synthetic ones. But how can you reasonably discount that someone may be in need of MAOI's or DMT in their brain while at the same time acknowledging that Ayahuasca is a beneficial experience and in fact recommend it for people experiencing troubles with sleeping and physical ailments as well as feeling down or depressed... in short, disconnected from the "whole"? Grainne honey, first off Ayahuasca is no drug like the shit that pharmaceutical companies are pushing. I understand you can't possibly know this until you get to know it for yourself. But I will tell you, ayahuasca is a living being. He is a healer, and a teacher. He teaches the right way to live, in order to stay healthy, sane and strong. Once you know him well, you don't need to ingest the plant-brew anymore. I, for example, last drank Ayahuasca last winter, exactly 12 months ago. Why? Because Ayahuasca calls _you_ -- you don't call him. I know all this sounds like Indian mumbo jumbo, but it's all true to the letter. Ayahuasca is a very wise living entity, so much older and wiser than us. Ayahuasca, in contrast to the majority of life on earth, does not hate us with prejudice. He can show you things, take you places, that no man ever could. Ayahuasca has been here for millions of years. He is unfathomable, powerful beyond what our puny human experience could understand, and if you approach him with the proper spirit, he will heal you and teach you what you _need_ to know. (and not what you want to know, mind you.) Second, technically the Harmala alkaloids contained in the Banisteriopsis Caapi vine (also contained in the Peganum Harmala bush) are RIMAs: reversible inhibitors of MAO-A. But you know, Grainne, you are giving me your opinion based on research, and not based on firsthand experience. The half life of Harmine is around 3 hours if I'm not mistaken. The half life of pharmaceutical MAOIs (not RIMAs) is in the order of 2 weeks. You are comparing apples and oranges here. The action of Ayahuasca cannot be explained purely in terms of serotonin levels and brain chemistry. Ayahuasca itself will show you this. Rather, There is something inexplicable at work here, and you simply cannot "know" it unless you experience it. Ayahuasca is not a drug for symptomatic treatment (i.e. modern medicine) ...no. Ayahuasca will show you your soul. It will show you how corrupt your spirit has become, how void of love your heart is. (not referring to you specifically, Grainne) -- Once you see how much love Ayahuasca has for the earth and for all life, once you see how much knowledge and wisdom it has, you won't be able to compare it to the poison that pharmacies are selling. And then, it is your responsibility to seek a more balanced lifestyle that suits you personally. Ayahuasca is the torch that lights up the path; you have to walk. With love. |
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Post by sh on Feb 1, 2013 2:27:20 GMT -5
Chemistry is completely involved in our physical make-up, whether we'd like to think in those terms or not. Every single thing, whether a gas, liquid or solid, is made up of elements. The chemical balances or over-balances cause hunger, obesity, mental fatigue, stimulus, an active or inactive immune system, etc., and so on. Our physical and mental health are directly connected. The question, as I see it, is which chemicals actually serve to add clarity to the thought processes and which ones are no more than a suppression of the thoughts to keep them from becoming depressive; which in effect, is artificial happiness. I believe nature is very good at guiding our thoughts to natural conclusions as long as our bodies are healthy and our minds adequately, ie., chemically balanced. The problem is, most people don't trust nature enough to allow it to do its healing. They want instant fixes, instant gratitude, instant success stories. Nature bides its time. Love, I believe, predisposes compassion. We would not be able to feel the plights or sufferings of others if we didn't care enough to reach out with respect toward their sensitivities. When we love enough, we don't wish to cause harm and are distressed by those whose love is so minimal, they can willfully cause harm to others. We might pity the lost soul so caught up in viciousness, but our compassion is for the victims of great harm. I sincerely hope we can begin to love enough to care for the down-trodden, the suppressed without giving excuses to the suppressors to continue their vicious actions. I honestly don't care how mentally ill a person is who commits viciousness. If the vicious cannot be moved to gentleness by acts of kindness and love, they are a poison, spreading more viciousness and creating more victims. They don't need understanding. They just need to be stopped. Actually, karlsie, and I don't mean to be obstinate or evasive, but every single thing that exists in all the cosmos, is first and foremost a flow (or field) of energy. I would say, matter 'happens' when the vibration of the energy fields slows down by a million orders of magnitude. I say "happens" because matter is a property of perception; it does not exist by itself as itself "out there." ('out there' is also a property of our perception.) IMHO, our natural state is something like the road runner; we're like an electric current, zipping around...we flow, and very fast at that. But for whatever reason, we've become solid blocks, like really big heavy rocks that can't move at all. Just like you said, karlsie, we believe we are solid objects. We believe we are matter and chemistry and a bunch of garbage that is really no good for anyone. If we repaired our spirit, gained a minimum of surplus energy, we would stop being matter. We would see that matter is energy that has been slowed down by perception. IME, from our current state as a species, we would need to "speed up" by a factor of a trillion to reach a true awareness of the flow of energy. This is a very sad thing IMO. In any case, for a field of energy with awareness, depression is not only meaningless, it's a joke. For a big rock that can't move, depression is a way of life. When I talk about transcending the self, the human ape-beast, I mean what I say karlsie. I'm really not here bullshitting you. But all that talk about chemicals is BS, IMHO. A real "healer" doesn't cure peoples' maladies with drugs or with a rational understanding of the physical systems at work in the body...no. A healer heals by intending to heal. That's it. That's all it takes. Any person with superior energy can jump start people who are suffering from blockages or stagnancy in their 'bodies.' (ie. the flow of energy; the spirit; awareness, etc. etc.) And IME, all physical maladies are caused by a disturbance of the free flow of energy. |
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Post by grainnerhuad on Feb 1, 2013 22:52:14 GMT -5
I do understand it is not like any drug. Which is why I believe it works. And you are right, I have not tried it, nor would I without a competent guide. There really is no reason to go to all the trouble just for the hallucinigenics. I would want to really benefit from it.
But, coming from a chemical standpoint, it does work on the same receptors that scientists and psychologists feel cause depression. Depression I believe is a valid state. It is not a "natural" one and can be fixed. Maybe ayahuasca is that thing, maybe there are other things too. I am just suggesting you think about the fact that there is a state of being that feels depressive and is effected by things like ayahuasca.
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Post by sh on Feb 2, 2013 2:15:53 GMT -5
I do understand it is not like any drug. Which is why I believe it works. And you are right, I have not tried it, nor would I without a competent guide. There really is no reason to go to all the trouble just for the hallucinigenics. I would want to really benefit from it. But, coming from a chemical standpoint, it does work on the same receptors that scientists and psychologists feel cause depression. Depression I believe is a valid state. It is not a "natural" one and can be fixed. Maybe ayahuasca is that thing, maybe there are other things too. I am just suggesting you think about the fact that there is a state of being that feels depressive and is effected by things like ayahuasca. Grainne, I do see the point you're getting at. I understand that what medical professionals call depression has to do with imbalances of certain neurotransmitters and problems with the receptor sites, namely 5-HT. And I also understand that biologists claim that certain psychedelics (LSD, tryptamines, etc.) bind to 5-HT receptors, among other things. Alright? So, our dear scientists-medicine men, have found chemicals that suppress the symptoms of depression through the manipulation of these receptor sites and the neurotransmitters that work together with them. For example, it is my understanding that SSRIs cause an increase in 5-HT levels (5-hydroxy-tryptamine; serotonin) in the brain, through "reuptake inhibition." At first, this relieves all the symptoms of depression, but a little time into the treatment, the brain starts to lose 5-HT receptor sites in compensation for the massive amounts of the neurotransmitter in circulation. Ok? Now it's your turn to think about my point of view.  I agree that Ayahuasca (and perhaps other psychedelics like psilocybin mushrooms, iboga, etc.) bind to 5-HT receptors. But first of all, that isn't all they do; their precise biological mechanisms of action are obscure to modern academia at this time. Here's my perspective: taking ayahuasca is like going out with a really kind, wise, old man. Except you don't go to the park together; you go on a magical journey of awareness through the cosmos. This old man has so much energy and so much knowledge, that just being with him, you are affected to make a change in your life, to better yourself. And if you find that the symptoms of your depression have disappeared for good after a single date with ayahuasca, it has nothing to do with chemicals IMO. It does happen though, and I think it happens because Ayahuasca shows you how great life is, and how you could make the most of the very little that you have. If I were to humbly put this in scientific terms, I'd say that Ayahuasca results in 5-HT receptors becoming more proficient in making use of the available serotonin, without any need for massive quantities of the neurotransmitter flooding the brain. Personally, I don't think you need a guide, Grainne. You're a very level-headed, mature woman IMO. And ayahuasca _is_ the guide; the point is to establish a personal relationship with "him." Perhaps, it's best to be offered to him by someone who knows him well. But that's no big deal. What matters is to approach him with the proper spirit.  |
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Post by karlsie on Feb 2, 2013 7:01:51 GMT -5
When you talk of ayahuaska as a "him"; a living force with a personality, I believe I can understand this. Peyote contains its own personality. When the peyote man manifests himself, it's outside the mental and physical boundaries, as though he lifts the veil to another world or dimension. Peyote, however, is a stern teacher. His lessons are in humility and awareness that there are forces far greater than our puny and carefully cultivated individuality. It's odd how that is as some psychedelics can make you feel very powerful; as though you can harness and control nature at will, but not peyote. It makes you understand that nature has its own will. You can't bribe it, command it, supplicate it, but by simply accepting it, you can be its friend. I'd try to say this better, but the words aren't flowing very well right now.
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Post by sh on Feb 2, 2013 7:39:11 GMT -5
If anyone is really interested in trying ayahuasca one day, I suggest you spring for some mimosa hostilis root bark soon. Last year, there was plenty of it going around on the internet. This year, it seems the supply is drying up, and customs worldwide are cracking down hard. I'm gonna go ahead and say that you probably won't be able to get your hands on the slightest bit of it next year.
The other ingredient, B. Caapi bark, can be substituted for P. Harmala seeds; the effects are identical, but you need a much larger dose of Caapi. Also, Caapi has to come from either the Amazon or Hawaii, and isn't very widely available. Peganum Harmala (aka Syrian Rue) can be bought for very cheap at any Iranian grocery store, anywhere in the world. Just ask for Esphand. (pronounced Es-fan-d)
Even if you're not planning on ingesting it, having Tepezcohuite and Esphand in your house will repel negative vibes. I always keep a little bit of both of them on my self. They really protect you against harm.
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Post by sh on Feb 2, 2013 7:51:34 GMT -5
karlsie, if you think Peyote is stern, Ayahuasca would be... I don't know.. hell maybe? If I had to compare, I'd say peyote is very gentle and loving with most people. Ayahuasca, on the other hand, will throw you into the deepest most shark-infested ocean you can imagine, and let you fend for yourself. Ayahuasca is only gentle if you are a warrior-type personality who loves challenge. Let me put it this way, if you would LOVE to be stranded in the middle of the Amazon rainforest alone and with no tools of any kind, then you would really enjoy Ayahuasca. The experience is quite similar, I would imagine. But when you come out the other side, it's like finally finding a perfect home after being lost in a hellish jungle for eternity. There is no feeling better than coming down off of Ayahuasca. And IME, that feeling doesn't fade for weeks afterwards. Peyote is stern? Are you kidding me? |
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Post by sh on Feb 2, 2013 8:30:05 GMT -5
When you talk of ayahuaska as a "him"; a living force with a personality, I believe I can understand this. Peyote contains its own personality. When the peyote man manifests himself, it's outside the mental and physical boundaries, as though he lifts the veil to another world or dimension. Peyote, however, is a stern teacher. His lessons are in humility and awareness that there are forces far greater than our puny and carefully cultivated individuality. It's odd how that is as some psychedelics can make you feel very powerful; as though you can harness and control nature at will, but not peyote. It makes you understand that nature has its own will. You can't bribe it, command it, supplicate it, but by simply accepting it, you can be its friend. I'd try to say this better, but the words aren't flowing very well right now. Now that you mention it, I've experienced something similar to this quite a few times. Well, maybe the exact opposite. I've noticed that in certain special states of consciousness, I am able to command "the elements," for lack of a better term. I've been able to command the wind to blow, really hard, by asking it to. I've even gathered storm clouds and made them rain. The first year I was in Tehran, I guess it was 6-7 years ago, it rained so much during the spring/early summer that the entire country was shocked and elated; all the precipitation records were broken according to the news. Snow fell on the Kavir desert plain (elevation 200 meters; there hadn't been a single case of snow there in over 2000 years) Though, I always do wonder if those things would have happened anyway, regardless of me. But I'll never know, I guess. I gotta go again.. be back later. |
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Post by karlsie on Feb 3, 2013 3:45:57 GMT -5
Yes, I believe peyote is a stern teacher; that is, if you receive an actual visit from the peyote man. Before I met the Peyote man, I had smoked peyote and had drunk it in tea numerous times with my friends. The effects were relatively mild; enhanced colors, a feeling of euphoric bonding, some mental stimulus, but no hallucinations, no concrete messages. Then I tried it in the Mojave desert. We ground the fresh peyote into a juice and drank it straight.
We drank peyote all that day, with the effects become a little more heightened each time we passed around the bowl. It was early evening when I heard Peyote Man. He rolled in like a herd of horses thundering into the desert. His shadow was longer and taller than the trees, although of course there were no trees in the desert. An owl screeched and dropped a long, striped tail feather. As I picked it up, I saw the bleaching bones of a coyote, faintly glowing in the setting sun. The stars came out, one by one, hard and biting, and the cactus cringed, twisting and turning in toward itself.
I generally hate the desert. I prefer oceans and mountains, cool breezes and dappled sunlight, but there was something that night, deep and eternal. Something so ancient, it made me tremble. Something that made death nothing more than a stillness and a forgetting, while life was a small miracle, stirring cautiously and struggling for survival.
I put my desert experience behind me as quickly as I could, longing to return to cool waters and lush, green mountains. But the Peyote Man had left his imprint, and even now, when I'm quiet and alone, his image returns unbidden, stern and foreboding, bringing back the screeching owl, the bleaching bones, the blood-red setting sun and a power beyond anything I've ever known.
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