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Post by sh on Jan 4, 2012 1:31:23 GMT -5
Grainne, you're right. There are scores of other ways.
What I'm saying is that it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for a man or woman to "know" why he/she is meditating, fasting or lost in the wilderness on purpose, unless he/she has first glimpsed something beyond the self.
When I was 14, I used to think that these people who just sat around doing nothing, and call it meditation, are nuts. The thought of refusing myself food, willfully, seemed absurd to me.
I never imagined that one day, I would jump willfully into the middle of a desert, get my self "lost" on purpose, and then try to survive.
My experiences with psychedelics were what convinced me that it's not crazy to do any of these things.
And Karla, really, thank you for your comments. Very refreshing, as always.
I just want to point out, that certain psychedelics like DMT, Salvia and Iboga are capable of producing effects that are in a higher class than the effects you described.
Salvia, for example, is usually associated with alternate realities. Some people report that they never "went back" to their old world, after taking a big dose of Salvia.
Ayahuasca, to me, has a much more "ancient teacher of man" feel to it. What it shows you isn't usually as farfetched and implausible as Salvia, yet it's just as strange and unbelievable.
It's insane that a bunch of plants should be taboo!
-f
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Post by sh on Jan 4, 2012 2:02:03 GMT -5
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Post by karlsie on Jan 4, 2012 3:16:31 GMT -5
Hmm. That is interesting. It is the type of phenomena i'm talking about; although there were plenty of witnesses, there are still plenty of skeptics and the first instinct is to find a plausible explanation.
Sh, i hesitate to state opinions on drugs i've never tried, but your DMT experience sounds a lot like the dissociation caused by near death experiences and severe trauma.
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Post by sh on Jan 4, 2012 3:29:55 GMT -5
A quote from the end, I feel is worthy of mention.
"In addition to the Miracle of the Sun, the seers at Fatima indicated that the lady prophesied a great sign in the night sky which would precede a second Great War.[37][38] An aurora borealis which appeared in 1938 all over the northern hemisphere, including in places as far south as North Africa, Bermuda, and California[37][38] and was the widest occurrence of the aurora since 1709[39] was interpreted as the great light the lady predicted. Lucia, the sole surviving seer at the time, indicated that it was the sign foretold and so apprised her superior and the bishop in letters the following day.[37][38] Just over a month later, Adolf Hitler seized Austria, and eight months later Nazi Germany invaded Czechoslovakia. These have been interpreted as the start of the Great War as predicted by the lady.[37][38]"
-f
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Post by sh on Jan 4, 2012 3:34:42 GMT -5
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Post by sh on Jan 4, 2012 9:57:06 GMT -5
Karla, the experience that comes about as a result of ingesting Ayahuasca is, IMO, completely different each time.
Also, during the altered state, things constantly change. The same tree or building will look different every time you see it. In fact, objects change shape, size, colour, etc. while you are staring at them.
As you gaze at objects, you might suddenly realize that "you" are no longer looking at something, but rather, you have become that thing you were looking at.
The experience usually includes intricate geometric patterns moving and morphing and changing color, behind closed eyelids.
Then you might open your eyes and see the shapes and colours dancing around superimposed on everything else.
To watch the dance of these geometric patterns usually induces intense euphoria that dissolves "you."
The shapes and patterns engulf your entire being. You might start dancing with them. And then, before you realize, you are flowing as part of something indescribable.
To me, this is what one would expect from a moderate dose.
If a large dose is ingested, one should expect to lose all contact with themselves.
It would probably begin with the realization that you can't breathe or feel your breath anymore. Then you might realize that you can't open or close your eyes. The thought pops into your head that you no longer have eyes, or a head for that matter.
You might find yourself surrounded by strange, alien landscapes. Sometimes they look like other planets, other times they look like nothing you've ever seen before.
Strange beings are usually present in these places. Beings that notice you when you suddenly "pop in." They might approach you and communicate with you, or they may remain indifferent.
Upon examining the "objects" that exist in these other places, sometimes you might feel like you are being pulled inside-out, like a glove, and then you find yourself in a different place.
You might find yourself in strange "rooms," and you might notice that the walls are covered in strange symbols that are alive.
You might engage in activities in these rooms, together with strange entities.
Then, gradually you will notice the geometric patterns again, you might open your eyes, or "wake up," and suddenly realize that you are a living creature, a man. (or woman)
You might feel a desperate longing and sadness. You might keep asking yourself "how could I have forgotten that I'm a man?!"
At this point, you might shout your thanks to the heavens, for having been given the chance to exist, to live. You might shout "THANK YOU," at the top of your lungs, for half an hour or so.
Then you might kneel and kiss the earth. (Don't do this, you will get dirt in your mouth.)
Then you will know, that to be alive is a miracle of monumental proportions.
-f
P.S. I really couldn't describe my "plant experiences" in more detail, not because I don't want to, but because the experiences and the perceptions involved are indescribable. And it's not just that we don't have proper words, rather it is that our language hasn't been constructed to fit these states, IMO. Language really just stops working altogether. I believe, these experiences belong to another realm; and so whatever we know from our daily lives, becomes inapplicable there.
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Post by sh on Jan 4, 2012 10:42:24 GMT -5
Presumably, certain ancient peoples, after thousands of years of pragmatic exploration of these strange other worlds, had mapped the entire perceivable universe available to man. (and woman)
This knowledge has been lost, today.
Man, the traveller, has become "man, what an idiot!"
-f
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Post by sh on Jan 4, 2012 11:08:18 GMT -5
I think it's obvious at this point, what I'm suggesting, is that after Adam, the religion of man was based on the consumption of the forbidden fruit, which may not have been so forbidden at that time.
What I am suggesting is that a certain monkey of the species Homo, developed religion, and an idea of the universe, together with an idea of him/herself, simply by ingesting a plant.
I believe it wasn't that their religion was based on a plant, rather their religion was the plant.
I speculate that the descendents of Adam and Eve, for thousands upon thousands of years, were engaged in an all-out exploration of awareness.
-f
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Post by sh on Jan 4, 2012 11:14:31 GMT -5
This symbiotic relationship between man and Ayahuasca still exists today, in the Amazon rainforest.
-f
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Post by sh on Jan 4, 2012 11:18:22 GMT -5
But, I believe, as man's power grew, so did his sense of self.
The more he explored the intricacies of existence, the more he felt "godlike."
The more godlike he felt, the further he drifted from teotl.
Today, I believe, we are just about as far away from teotl as we could possibly be. We no longer know teotl.
We no longer have godlike power either, but we feel very important nonetheless.
-f
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Post by sh on Jan 4, 2012 11:25:31 GMT -5
Today, as men and women of a new age, we can no longer afford to make our ancestors' mistake.
Today, I feel humbled when I see the vastness that I'm up against.
I see that we are truly insignificant dust; we are nothing.
-f
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Post by sh on Jan 4, 2012 11:39:36 GMT -5
Today, I see myself up against insurmountable odds. I see myself alive.
I see that life is a challenge. And it's a "beat the clock" kind of deal.
I see that I have until death, to learn to stand as "perception," independent of my self.
I see that if I accomplish this feat, I could become eternal, free. I see that I could merge with whatever's out there and flow with it forever.
I see that if I don't succeed, my fate is oblivion, also eternal.
-f
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Post by sh on Jan 4, 2012 12:13:52 GMT -5
So.. does this make any sense?
-f
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Post by karlsie on Jan 4, 2012 20:27:33 GMT -5
Yes, i think this makes sense. Lysergic acid is the strongest psychedelic drug i've taken (and i still refuse to classify it as a hallucinogenic drug) but it has given me enough microscopic vision into patterns and designs that i can at least imaginatively comprehend your experiences with Ayahuasca. I once became so engrossed in the cellular structure of the plant life surrounding me, i was terrified to move. I perceived all life, from the molecular scale to the cosmos, moving, living and breathing around me. I felt if i took one step, i would unintentionally destroy countless life forms under my foot.
I have no doubt that humankind has used psychoactive drugs for millenium. People had varying degrees of intelligence, abilities and motivations twenty five thousand years ago as they do now. What i suspect is, that the first priests, priestesses, shamans, healers, and prophets were those who saw meaningful visions versus the general confusion others might have felt. Maybe there were some who enjoyed their position so much, they felt only specific people could be trained to follow their paths of knowledge; and maybe they were right; who knows. What we do know is that over time, psychoactive drug use was limited in most established societies, except by their religious/spiritual leaders. At some point, maybe, those who aspired to religious leadership positions, but did not have the vision, became jealous of those who "opened their third eye" so easily and began persecuting those who dealt with medicinal herbs and psychoactive drugs, and even those who didn't need psychoactive drugs to stimulate the extrasensory perception. Now, at the extreme end of the cycle, we might start swinging back the other way.
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Post by sh on Jan 5, 2012 1:43:10 GMT -5
I suppose anyone who has read Jay Stevens' "Storming Heaven: LSD & The American Dream" and Martin Lee and Bruce Shlain's "Acid Dreams: The complete social history of LSD: The CIA, The Sixties, and Beyond" will find this cliche, but really, what is the establishment so afraid of?
I refuse to believe that they think psychedelics cause insanity.
Alexander Shulgin and his wife were invited to spend time at the Bohemian Grove, probably on more than a few occasions. They state this in their book, either PiHKAL or TiHKAL.
Now, why would the empire's elite want to hang out with the world's most famous psychedelic drug designer couple?
And I assume we all know the people that frequent the bohemian grove, right?
-f
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