The irony of christianity

[asiaticdarkperson]

So the basic premise of christianity is that jesus was the son of god and he was born of a virgin woman.. I consider this a fundamental concept of christendom because if jesus was not in fact born to a virgin, then he probably wasn't the son of god and hence the entire edifice of christianity goes under question.

Modern science, which is IMO also a religion, purports to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that a virgin cannot give birth to a child. According to modern science it is possible for a female human to "propagate" via parthenogenetic and asexual reproduction; hypothetically women can give birth to clones of themselves as certain reptiles do. But for a woman to give birth to a boy is basically impossible as far as I know.

So here is science claiming that christianity is BS because their basic premise is a lie. But on the other hand christian faith implies that impossible miracles are not impossible or miracles for god.

At this point science states that god and miracles definitely don't exist and man and the universe were created by evolution and not by god.

I think the real mystery is being overlooked by both sides. The real mystery to me is that anything should exist at all!

I think we should stop claiming to know what's going on and just confess that we have no idea how anything exists.

There is no god; he is just a mental image. There was no big bang; just a description derived from syntax, from experience. There was never any beginning or creator; beginnings and creators are concepts derived from perception.

What if what's really out there is not perceivable at all? Apparently, ~80 percent of the universe by mass is dark matter/energy; it's dark because we can't perceive it.

There is dark matter and dark energy on earth but we never see it or feel it or hear it..

[asiaticdarkperson]

So.. I think what this means is that what we perceive as ordinary reality; ie. all the things in the world, are in fact something like 20 percent of what exists out there. (or less, more like 2% if you ask me)

It seems to me like what we have is a literal puzzle (the game with the cardboard pieces, not a metaphor) where most of the pieces are missing, but we look at the puzzle thinking what we see is all there is to it.

We are missing like 98% of the pieces! All of our empirical sciences are based on 2% of what exists in the world. This is a fact and not just my opinion. Physicists know now that the universe is almost entirely made of "dark matter" and the amount of ordinary matter is practically negligible in comparison.

[The Late Mitchell Warren]

You and I think alike, ADP.

I reject science and religion both, because both have huge gaping holes in their logic.

As far as Christianity goes....I guess miracles don't exist unless they're anomalies of evolution.

You might wonder, isn't it possible that if the human species continues to deteriorate for thousands of years, that males or females might become asexual in order to continue to propagate?

Isn't anything theoretically possible in evolution or science? Isn't that the very idea behind mutation?

For that matter, if life always finds a way, why then did most humanoid species die out long before man existed? Why couldn't the Neanderthals have evolved and continued to exist alongside human beings?

ADP, for all you know, I could be God conversing with you. There's just no way to disprove it.

[asiaticdarkperson]

Mar 26, 2012 14:37:39 GMT -5 The Late Mitchell Warren said:

For that matter, if life always finds a way, why then did most humanoid species die out long before man existed? Why couldn't the Neanderthals have evolved and continued to exist alongside human beings?

You know Mitch according to some ancient mythologies, the gods/god created humans on quite a few occasions but ultimately destroyed each of them and created another version. The evidence, mind you, seems to agree with the myths on some level IMO.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Suns

www.criscenzo.com/jaguarsun/popolvuh.html

According to the Maya, the first people were made out of clay but they broke. The second people were made out of wood but they were dull. The third people (us) were made out of maize flour. (This is purely symbolic of course.)

ADP, for all you know, I could be God conversing with you. There's just no way to disprove it.

Are you?

[asiaticdarkperson]

Mitch, I didn't really mean to imply that god doesn't exist. Let me clarify. God is a kind of personage. We don't perceive God the same way we perceive a tree, the earth or the sky. God is something that has been described to us as a concept is described.

Now, this concept of God is purely abstract, because there is no concrete manifestation in the world that we could identify as God.

So, what I meant to say is that while there is most certainly a creator involved, that creator is definitely not a personage.

Here's a passage from the Tao Te Ching, page 25

There was something formless and perfect
before the universe was born.
It is serene. Empty.
Solitary. Unchanging.
Infinite. Eternally present.
It is the mother of the universe.
For lack of a better name,
I call it the Tao.
It flows through all things,
inside and outside, and returns
to the origin of all things.
The Tao is great.
The universe is great.
Earth is great.
Man is great.
These are the four great powers.
Man follows the earth.
Earth follows the universe.
The universe follows the Tao.
The Tao follows only itself.

I believe the Tao (or teotl) is something that can be perceived just as we perceive anything else in the world.

You see Mitchell, there is no way to know if the sky is blue for sure unless you see it.

So, I believe as long as one has not perceived "the creator" directly, all that one has is mental images, concepts, descriptions -- all second hand.

I could most certainly draw you a picture of a tree, but no matter how detailed and precise the picture is it's not the real thing. There are countless pictures (descriptions) of God/the creator in the world today but they are all worthless IMO.

I think the only thing that counts is direct experience.

But teotl is hidden; it isn't in plain view like the sky. You have to look for it.. look for it like a researcher, an investigator, a journalist.

[asiaticdarkperson]

Here's another.. page 28.

Know the male,
yet keep to the female:
receive the world in your arms.
If you receive the world,
the Tao will never leave you
and you will be like a little child.
Know the white,
yet keep to the black:
be a pattern for the world.
If you are a pattern for the world,
the Tao will be strong inside you
and there will be nothing you can’t do.
Know the personal,
yet keep to the impersonal:
accept the world as it is.
If you accept the world,
the Tao will be luminous inside you
and you will return to your primal self.
The world is formed from the void,
like utensils from a block of wood.
The Master knows the utensils,
yet keeps to the the block:
thus she can use all things.

[The Late Mitchell Warren]

If I were God, I would never admit it.

The bible may well be a scam, but there are a lot of strange coincidences that still make me superstitious. I've heard some scientists speculating that a massive flood like event did affect the earth a long time ago. I know practically every civilization and religion speaks of a flood like event. And of course, we all remember in Genesis God saying that he is regretful that he created mankind and then sends destruction.

Now are we just another age of man that god is getting annoyed with and decides to destroy? LOL

Yes, SH, that's how I rationalized it even as a Christian. The part of my brain that couldn't fathom how God had no beginning and no end...I just believed that there was a greater intelligence out there, but that we don't really understand him or it.

Now, I am still inclined to believe that something exists out there, it's just not within our parameters of understanding. There is simply too many variables in the universe to claim that the universe is explainable in human terms. (Hence, I don't put much stock in what scientists claim, and I can't agree with atheists because they seem so 100% sure about hypotheses)

The only real issue is consciousness. When we die, is there another plain of consciousness? It disturbs me that almost every religion teaches that we all become one--one part of universal consciousness. At least a few Christian sects teach individuality in paradise....though not many.

[asiaticdarkperson]

Mitch, I'm really not aiming for a confrontation of ideologies here so don't get me wrong, but I think the idea that the truth is not understandable to humans is taking the easy way out. How is it any different than claiming to know the truth, or that there is no truth at all?

I think by virtue of existing, we are entitled to the truth..

I think when an illiterate person looks at the pages of a book, he or she doesn't understand what it is they are looking at. But they can perceive the pages and the words nonetheless.

I believe the truth about god or the creator or whatever is for us like the illiterate guy; that is, we can perceive the truth (I personally attest to this) but while we perceive it we most likely will not be able to understand it..

I think dismissing the truth as not-understandable (ie. agnosticism) is ludicrous. The truth is out there.. it's up to you and me to grasp it.

[asiaticdarkperson]

Mar 27, 2012 15:45:52 GMT -5 The Late Mitchell Warren said:

The only real issue is consciousness. When we die, is there another plain of consciousness? It disturbs me that almost every religion teaches that we all become one--one part of universal consciousness. At least a few Christian sects teach individuality in paradise....though not many.

I think the short answer is Yes, of course there is another plane beyond this.. and another beyond that ad infinitum!

But the real question is, will I survive there? Am I ready to face infinity?

[asiaticdarkperson]

Here's what I see..

Only a small portion of all that exists lends itself to sensory perception; most of what's out there can't be seen with eyes or heard with ears.

As far as sensory perception goes it seems there is no sign of god anywhere.. So it's possible that god is one of those things that cannot be perceived by flesh. What does this mean?

I'm sure you've heard of sensory deprivation tanks, Mitch. The concept here is that by feeding a null input to our sense we basically turn them off.. Imagine if you suddenly became blind and deaf and lost all of your other sensory perception faculties. What do you think would remain?

Experience shows that some form of awareness, of perception remains even under total sensory deprivation.. I would call it the abstract self, because it's still you -- just not the physical you.

To me this is the same phenomenon as the dreaming self; as in what/who you are when you are dreaming. (In dreams it appears that we "look at" or "hear" things just like we do in normal waking life but obviously there is no light or sound involved here)

In any case, I would say that from the vantage point of the abstract self, the scope of what is perceivable is vast; limitless for all practical purposes.

[The Late Mitchell Warren]

Just try to visualize God or superior life of whatever form as a human being, and we humans as an ant. An ant cannot comprehend what we are. In fact, the only relationship we can have with an ant is to give an ant life or death, or to assign it a task of things to do.

So I guess this is how I see God, or the Universe, or whatever thing is out there. I don't see how this being could ever understand what it's like to be so weak, and we to understand what it's like to be all powerful. We are the ant farm God keeps around for his amusement. When he's bored of us he opens the farm and throws us all down the toilet.

Great life, eh?