On celibacy

[asiaticdarkperson]

I'm gonna start this off with a quote from HP Blavatsky's "Isis Unveiled."

"Says Professor Joseph Le Conte: "What is the nature of the difference between the living organism and the dead organism? We can detect none, physical or chemical. All the physical and chemical forces withdrawn from the common fund of nature, and embodied in the living organism, seem to be still embodied in the dead, until little by little it is returned by decomposition. Yet the difference is immense, is inconceivably great. What is the nature of this difference expressed in the formula of material science? What is that that is gone, and whither is it gone? There is something here that science cannot yet understand. Yet it is just this loss which takes place in death, and before decomposition, which is in the highest sense vital force!""

Whether you are an adherent of Western (American Indian) Shamanism, or Eastern Zen/Buddhist/Taoist doctrine, celibacy is always on the table as an unquestionable requisite for any disciple who wishes to make real progress. I make this statement absolutely, regardless of what many "masters" might say.

I know that a lot of people resent the idea of abstaining from sexual activity and are totally put off by it. I know some people claim to be shamans or gurus without adhering to the strict celibacy code. They claim to have made it all work without controlling and greatly limiting their sexual activity. All I can say is, these people are either wizards or full of shit.

Celibacy has nothing to do with pleasing god (because god hates sex?) or self-denial or any of the other nonsensical dogma that is usually attached to the idea. Celibacy, afaic, is about conserving one's life force and energy, so as to have a minimum surplus of energy. This liberated energy can then be used in the pursuit of knowledge and power.

How such a simple concept has become so twisted and misunderstood is just beyond me. People's sexual energy creates new people. The magnitude of the energy involved here is certainly nothing to sneeze at. And yet the vast majority of people on earth treat sex like some fun game, which results in no more than a fleeting moment of pleasure.

The universe doesn't know black, white, chinese or female people. It doesn't discriminate between rich, poor, employer, employee, christian, jew or atheist. The universe only knows two types of people; people who have surplus (positive) energy and people who don't. The first group are treated like VIPs, the second like dogs. I suppose some would compare having energy to being lucky; like a streak of good luck that assures you always make the most out of any situation. Or like a guardian angel that is always looking out for you, making sure nothing really bad ever happens.

Celibacy does exactly what it is supposed to do, IMO. But there are plenty of "fake" shitheads out there who have no idea what it means to be on a quest for the truth, and so celibacy means absolutely nothing to them. Just because some people can't keep their dick in their pants, doesn't mean celibacy is BS.

In my opinion, unless you have been refraining from sexual activity (and masturbation) for at least 7 years, and you are under 30-35 then you can't possibly know what celibacy can do; a state of balance with a lot of free energy. It's exactly the same state everyone is in before they become sexually active. After that, it starts to go away very slowly, and unnoticeably, but then before you know it you're already old and exhausted, and you don't know why.

[asiaticdarkperson]

Here's a tip for anyone who's serious about celibacy.

Whenever I see a girl looking my way, or smiling at me on the street, I give her a really fierce angry look like "y' better keep your distance bitch." Works like a charm every time.

My cousin's cousin (I mentioned him last year in this thread: subversify.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=lounge&action=display&thread=2118) ..anyway, he's been dating this girl for like a couple years now. It's the same girl referred to in the other thread. So, a few days ago I was out in the neighborhood and he approached me and asked me if I could do him a favor and go up to his girlfriend's house, ring the bell and get her to come out somehow. I've never even met her, so I was like "wtf are you talking about, dude?" Then he starts to explain that the girl's parents have forbidden her from seeing him until he proposes. They called his mom and gave her an ultimatum: Either your son marries our daughter, or he walks out of her life now for good.

Apparently, his mom replied thus: "My son doesn't know his left from his right hand. He's unemployed, living with his parents, and doesn't have a cent to his name. And you want him to marry your daughter? Where will they live? How will they support themselves? etc. etc."

Now, these guys (my cousin's cousin and his family) are piss poor, and highly under-educated lower middle-class. And the girl's family aren't too much better off either. I heard that a few weeks back, the girl bought him like 2 thousand dollars worth of shoes, clothes, a new cell-phone and a bunch of other crap. She is working as a secretary or something, with a high-school diploma. I'm guessing she payed a years' worth her salary to buy him all that. And he is unemployed, with a high school diploma, but "so dumb" (to quote his mother) that no one would want to hire him for anything.

If this were 10-20 years ago, the girl's dad (and all of her relatives!) would have broken down the boy's door and beat the shit out of him in front of his parents, and then the ultimatum would have been: "You fucked my daughter!@#%@# Now you're gonna marry her and support her or you're gonna die. You have 10 seconds to decide."

But as it is today, he's been fucking her for two years now and both families know all about it. But they can't do anything. (Both side's parents are opposed to their kids having sex at all.)

Apparently, last night he took her to see a doctor 'cause of some liver pains she's been having. (or so I hear. lol)

Edit: They're both 20-21 years old I believe. They're just two kids, though. Their parents have to do absolutely everything for them. And the boy is only interested in hanging out with his friends, and playing soccer. Apparently, she wanted him to come with her to get a sonography (ultrasound) last night after they met with the doctor, but he wanted to go be with his friends, so he pleaded with the doctor (behind her back) to schedule the ultrasound for tomorrow. And also, the parents on both sides disapprove of the others' kid (+family,) and the relationship altogether; the girls' parents believe she could do (or could have done) much better, and the boys' parents think he's not ready for marriage.

[asiaticdarkperson]

Hey! this could be "a young couple's story" lol

[grainnerhuad]

I read the first entry last week and went away to think about it. I remember we had a similar conversation here at the forum last year.

My immediate response and the reason why I waited was,(I thought in my mind) this is a male perspective. I still feel that way a bit. Not exactly about celibacy, but about sex energy. Women, females exist in part to create. We could get all PC and rant about humans have superceded biological imperitives blah blah blah. But Women come made to create. To do this some of this energy must be used.

But I do agree with using it wisely. And I do think there is more to all relationships than intercourse, many many good lasting bonded relationships last while celibate. Much is gained by being celibate and learning from it. Nothing is gained if you are celibate and waste that time or do it unwillingly and are spending that time lusting for sex.

But, I do think that the responsible use of our sexual energy gives form to another type of knowledge growth and communication. None of that though can occur without looking within, which cannot be done while in the midst of giving into drives.

I think it wrong to say that all Shamanism reveres celibacy, very many revere the "Mother" which cannot be without creative sexuality.

As far as young people they do need some sort of guidance and help which seems to be lacking in this world. I believe in familial and sexual responsibility, although I'm sure I wouldn't want a man that had to be threatened into being my mate. But, nobody teaches these things and the "Why" of the importance. Just the "it is important".

There is a problem with adults who act like children. Is it their fault? Their parent's? Society? Evolution?

Most likely all of the above to some extent.

[asiaticdarkperson]

Jan 9, 2013 14:41:36 GMT -5 grainnerhuad said:

I read the first entry last week and went away to think about it. I remember we had a similar conversation here at the forum last year.

My immediate response and the reason why I waited was,(I thought in my mind) this is a male perspective. I still feel that way a bit. Not exactly about celibacy, but about sex energy. Women, females exist in part to create. We could get all PC and rant about humans have superceded biological imperitives blah blah blah. But Women come made to create. To do this some of this energy must be used.

Sure Grainne, but the sex that women (and men) are interested in today has nothing to do with procreation. Lets be realistic.

But I do agree with using it wisely. And I do think there is more to all relationships than intercourse, many many good lasting bonded relationships last while celibate. Much is gained by being celibate and learning from it. Nothing is gained if you are celibate and waste that time or do it unwillingly and are spending that time lusting for sex.

IME, it's a lot more than just extra time, I mean sure young people do spend lots of their time every day in the pursuit of sex, but it's more than that. By analogy, it is like what modern physicists call definite energy levels. It's like shifting to a state of higher energy, and the effect it has on one's life moment by moment is the point. It's the difference between being tired all the time, and bursting with energy all the time. And I see a lot of tired people around me

.

But, I do think that the responsible use of our sexual energy gives form to another type of knowledge growth and communication. None of that though can occur without looking within, which cannot be done while in the midst of giving into drives.

The celibacy I'm talking about isn't psychological, Grainne. It seems to me like you are only looking at it from the perspective of a behaviorist. The crux of the matter here is something that modern science isn't even aware of: that there is such a thing as "vital force." Modern science (and with it all the schools of psychology) does not acknowledge the existence of any life-force in its edifices.

The celibacy I'm referring to is physics. We are organic machines. All of our scientific principles of energy are valid so far as the human body is concerned. Having sex requires significant energy expenditure, it puts strain on the body, etc. Try to think of it in these terms, and tell me if it still doesn't make sense.

I think it wrong to say that all Shamanism reveres celibacy, very many revere the "Mother" which cannot be without creative sexuality.

True tribal shamans (as opposed to the psuedo-christian BS that is so common in mexico and south america) never take wives. (or husbands) This type of shaman is very rare in today's world, Grainne. Like I said, a lot of people are just fakes that don't know what they're doing.

As far as young people they do need some sort of guidance and help which seems to be lacking in this world. I believe in familial and sexual responsibility, although I'm sure I wouldn't want a man that had to be threatened into being my mate. But, nobody teaches these things and the "Why" of the importance. Just the "it is important".

All of this is a matter of having energy, IMO. People live weak lives because they are weak and tired. They can't help it. Weak people (people who lack energy) can't change the way they are, they are stuck at a definite energy level.

[grainnerhuad]

No, I understand the vital force perspective, I do. I just believe it is also beneficial and indeed vital to use it in tandem with a working partner, one who is aware at the same time. It is the real directive behind Kundalini is it not? To not misuse this vital force but to also use it well and correctly when you do.

Also, I disagree that people don't focus on procreation. This act is a sacred one and very many connect in this way and do not waste those moments. Of course overwhelmingly you are correct. The world at large is an animal in heat, and an uncontrolled heat at that. But not everyone and I disagree again that the vital force is wasted every time it is joined. How could it not multiply when woven together?

While as a woman past those younger years, having been both celibate and mother through them, I can say both have benefited my energy and the spiritual development of me and my chosen mate.

[asiaticdarkperson]

Grainne, here are the facts of my argument. If you like, we can go through them one by one and debate each point to your satisfaction.

1. We are organic machines that run on energy.
2. The form of energy that keeps us alive is not heat, electricity, light or any other known form of energy that we perceive in the world around us, yet it must be some real and concrete "thing" --since something is really and concretely keeping us alive.
3. The energy that keeps us alive could be called vital force. But I prefer to call it the spirit, because this energy is alive and aware and it is the force behind all that exists. (without awareness, nothing could "exist.")
4. We have the potential to create children. In order to do so, we need to give a chunk of our life-essence to our progeny so that they may live.
5. Our life-energy is finite, just as our lives and our youth are finite.
6. According to the law of conservation of energy, the vital-energy keeping you and I alive is the same energy that our ancestors held a million years ago. (There is no 'new energy' popping into existence. It can only transform, and flow through time, and in this special case, perpetuate itself.)
7. Another word for this life-energy is "awareness." In terms of the quote at the beginning of the thread: awareness is what's missing in a corpse. Awareness is the force that keeps us alive. And awareness is what we bestow on our offspring at the moment of their conception.
8. When we have sex, regardless of our intent, be it for fun or procreation, our bodies are trying to bestow awareness, even if nothing is conceived.

P.S. I honestly have no idea what kundalini is. But I'd love to know your thoughts on it.

[grainnerhuad]

Kundalini is a Yogic tradition. I really have not studied it in depth. Only in the most rudimentary way. It is basically the belief that this energy which is envisioned in Kundalini as a snake who lives at the base of the spine, must be treasured and cared for. Yoga poses in Kundalini reflect that, the awakening and care of the snake, the calming, etc. In sexual practice, as far as I can tell the shared energy is the only important thing to pay attention to. It must be done with thought reverence and respect to the energy. It is very important to note this is not Tantra which itself has been massively misunderstood (and abused) by westerners. This is a more masculine practice and one that acknowledges keeping the snake is beneficial to health. -Now again that's as I understand it. I could be wildly off on some principles as I never studied it with a Yogi.

As to your points. I cannot argue with them. They are reasonable. It is never my feeling that we all have the same experiences or even should. So what you have discovered as a truth to you is yours. And laid out this way, it is supremely reasonable.

I can only say, my experience is somewhat different. As a woman I do not feel a loss of energy at creating but rather a gain. It occured to me as I thought on this that taking into consideration your thoughts, this may be why women generally outlive their male mates when all other factors are taken into consideration.

[asiaticdarkperson]

This is gonna make me look like a crack-pot for sure, but here goes..

Okay so, the energy that is required for day to day life isn't a whole lot, IME. Having plenty of sex probably won't affect the way a lot of people live out their waking hours every day. (Then again, who knows?)

But then there's the other side of human life; the night, and dreaming. Ever since I was ten years old, I wanted to fly (like superman) or become invisible, move objects without touching them, see through walls, read people's thoughts, know the future, etc. etc. At age 16, I discovered beyond any doubt that all this is impossible in terms of the physical body. Right around that time, I also discovered the concept of the dreaming-body, the double or the energetic-body. (again, this concept exists both in East and West)

The double is the king of the realm of dreaming, just as the self is the master of waking consciousness. The double is a configuration of pure energy which exists in a world of pure energy, whereas the self is meat and bone in a realm of physical objects.

The double cannot function at all without a hefty supply of sexual energy. The double is made of sexual energy. I believe if the energy-body is developed to the point of perfection, it can fly or walk through walls as easily as we take a piss.

I'm afraid there is no way around this Grainne. Having sex is fine if creating is all one cares about. But IMO, if one wishes to evolve instead, to become something more than bones rotting in a grave, one must be very greedy and frugal when it comes to sexual energy.

Maybe I'm aiming too high...But then again, everything is possible in dreaming. So maybe everyone else is aiming a little too low?

[asiaticdarkperson]

And Grainne, I don't mean to attack you or anything like that, and it's really none of my business anyway, so please don't take offense, but when you say creating...I get the impression that you're talking about having children. Am I correct to assume that if you have 2-3 kids, you've only had sex 2-3 times?

A lot of people I know have 2-3 kids, but they've had sex 2000-3000 times. How is this related to "creating?" What exactly is being created here? And do you know of any creature on this earth that has sex all year round without creating offspring? God forbid, I'm not comparing people to animals, because we're obviously much more intelligent and our behavior is much more appropriate. So, either we're right or every other animal on earth is right.

And about kundalini, I try not to concern myself with imaginary energies whose existence can't be verified in the least, let alone utilized for practical purposes. I think my argument in regards to awareness was quite straightforward...It's true we don't know what awareness is or where it comes from, but we all sure as hell know that we are aware and that some force is keeping us alive.

BTW, none of this is aimed specifically at you Grainne. Please don't take offense.

P.S. And seriously, these truths have nothing to do with me and my life experiences. I believe they apply to every organism on earth, male or female. If you think my perspective is a male perspective, you're wrong Grainne. And if you think for some reason I don't enjoy sex, you're wrong again; I didn't just enjoy it, I was very good at it. I'm not impotent or a premature ejaculator, my penis certainly isn't small, and I definitely don't have any trouble finding a mate. Rather, I like to think I've transcended maleness altogether. I believe what I am presenting here is objective truth, not subjective experience. I really don't care much for talking about my self and my personal experiences, unless of course there's some transpersonal meaning behind them. (...just making sure we're on the same page.)

[grainnerhuad]

We are on the same page. I didn't take offense and meant none to you. I made no assumptions, with the slight exception that to me it 'felt' like a male arguement.

To be clear I have 5 living children, I gave birth to 6. I would like to say obviously...but I guess it's not, have had intercourse more than 6 times. In fact, most people could not 'just' procreate because it takes timing to get a child. Indeed since I do not share your view and am entertaining it as an intellectual discourse, it cost me nothing to say I have had plenty more than 6 experiences. I wouldn't guess at any number. Although 2-3000 seems somewhat high...are you sure that's average?

I cannot however see how this can be objective truth. Since all truths, are subjective to the individual experiencing and processing them. Indeed, even if we agree that all are one and connected as we have discussed before and chose to have separate experiences in this time and place, it makes no sense to me for all to have the same experience or even the same laws governing their being. What purpose would it serve to learn the same thing millions of times over?

[asiaticdarkperson]

I was referring to those 8 points, when I said objective truth.

Can you tell me which one of them is my personal experience in the sense that it only applies to me?

Edit: And all _is_ one, Grainne. This is no conjecture of mine and there's no need to agree. All it takes is to transcend the idea of self and then you won't be able to disagree.

Edit2: And you say "purpose" as though existence must have some purpose, and furthermore that the purpose must be understandable to human reason. In regards those eight truths, I am really not speculating. They are derivatives of what some people call "energetic facts." The facts are out there for anyone to perceive, and these are merely the conclusions I've drawn from perceiving them.

Edit3: IMO, the differences between people and the laws that govern them are like the differences between the ants of a large colony. How ridiculous would we find it if the ants thought they were each unique individuals, different than the others, living by different laws and in a different world, special. This is the ego IMHO, Grainne. We are not unique as far as I'm concerned. I say we're all EXACTLY the same, regardless of how different our egos' upbringing might have been. In fact, I say all that exists is exactly the same, one thing, but you wouldn't be able to understand what I'm saying because of your self. (I don't mean to be condescending or hurtful, so please forgive me if I come off that way.)

Edit4: I'm not trying to force you to share my view. How could you? You have 5 kids! By sharing my view you'd be a hypocrite. We're just having a friendly discussion here, Grainne. And I'm happy to argue and put forth new ideas and I'm glad that you take the time to debate with me. This really isn't about forcing anyone to accept anothers' point of view. And I'm definitely not offended by your opposing view...Far from it, in fact!

[The Late Mitchell Warren]

Yes, I've written about kundalini before, and Taoism and all that preserve your semen philosophy. I went through half of my life as a total celibate, Christian boy. I can personally attest to having no great supernatural powers, or even enlightened viewpoint. More life sexual frustration. I still am extremely horny and have impure thoughts about women everywhere. Help me, Shh.

[asiaticdarkperson]

I don't have any superpowers either (yet!) but I am super-annoying. ;D

Good to have you back Mitch. Really.

Edit: Would you mind sharing what exactly drove you to stay celibate half your life?

EditAgain: I'd stop thinking in terms of "impure" thoughts, whatever that means. And celibacy isn't about preserving semen. (wtf?) You need to "see" or perceive the human body as a closed flow of energy. By having sex, one is opening up the closed system, thus always resulting in energy loss, or drainage if you will. Taking psychedelics also opens one up, but in order to merge the internal energy with the external flux, the universe at large. Does this make any sense?

EditOneMoreTime: My dad is a programmer and a thermodynamics and fluid dynamics guru. He pushed me to learn all of his shit when I was VERY young. So, I can't help but think in terms of machine language and mechanics. But I assure you, whatever I'm telling you is accurate as far as my understanding goes. If it sounds like gibberish, I'm sorry.

[The Late Mitchell Warren]

Religion kept me celibate. The mistaken viewpoint that purity and abstinence was linked with godliness. Giving away your body was a sin and worse yet, it "cheapened you." You deserved something better for waiting. It was not only a higher consciousness but a higher morality, a godly code.

Now I pretty much realize it's all bullshit, or at least, that part of it is. My one regret is that i didn't give my semen away to more cute girls and milfs when i was single. I really should have held a contest on Ebay for the sperm of The Late Mitchell Warren. Just 19.95, provided you pay the traveling expenses.

I sort of understand what you're talking about SHH, but you have yet to explain what the positives are about closing up the system and retaining energy. I've read that celibacy invites madness, perhaps even enhances creativity. Drugs do that by themselves regardless of celibacy. I guess I've never really had a spiritual moment, or a psycedelicl experience. Frankly, I'm too afraid of the paranoia associated with psychedelic imagery. Because pot paranoia on its own is really freaky.