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Post by karlsie on Dec 26, 2011 19:48:01 GMT -5
Sh, wow! I'm totally impressed. You have really done your homework! To begin with, you weren't rude. This is what our forum is for; hashing out all the those scurrying thoughts disturbing your sleep and intruding on your conscious routine. Although you might find the disagreement of debate here, disagreements of themselves, we never find offensive, especially when backed by documentary evidence. We are only offended when debates reduce themselves to name calling and labeling. We respect each others views and never apologize for our opinions.
Your research of the artificial language is exciting. Do i hear someone in the panel punching the buzzer with, "tower of Babel"? How would a small tribe of survivors recount their ancient history of a world gone wrong without the means at their disposal any longer for describing the technology? Story telling from generation to generation would be altered and subverted to into terms the listeners could understand.
Anthropology data was interpreted by what is understood now as technological and societal advancement. Anthropologists of a hundred years ago determined the pyramids of Egypt were built by slaves because, for a world rising slowly out of slavery, this seemed the most practical means for acquiring the man power for building them. It has only been in recent years that they've determined the pyramid builders were actually paid laborers. An anthropologist of a hundred years ago would not have recognized that some ancient societies used batteries and hydro-electric power because at the time, these resources were only in the beginning phase of a world that thought it had been advancing slowly from caveman to its present, highly industrial status.
Give me a break. According to all scientific research, humankind has been around for at least 100,000 years. Are we really willing to believe we existed for 96,000 years before finally getting it together enough to leave our caves, build great cities and discover the tools for making our lives easier? Were we given a magic pill that suddenly made us smarter than the apes and rapidly be able to accomplish things we had not had the intelligence to piece together for 96,000 years? Were we invaded by aliens to smarten us up? What do we really have to lose by scratching our preconceptions and examining the evidence in front of us except that little piece of arrogance that we are smarter, more advanced and better civilized than our ancestors, or that our own particular history books we carry around to prove our individual/racial/cultural superiority are wrong? (Actually, i don't really believe these history books are wrong, just misinterpreted.)
You also hit the nail on the head with Cholula. All i can say is, double wow. An interesting fact about the Cholula pyramid. It is one of 365 that were buried under mounds and promptly anointed as holy places by that little seventeenth century monk. There is a church or a chapel on each and every one of them, which means the populace will not allow them to be excavated because, in their practical explanation, they are all Christians now. From the top of the Cholula pyramid, you can see these other mounds clearly. They form a circle, or, considering they are built along the volcanic rim, more accurately, a spiral.
I'm extremely impressed by your knowledge of Central American tribes. Few people take the trouble to learn much beyond the preliminary information, and dismiss the significance of their advancements. My feelings on mass extinction are so intricately tied with my feelings on spirituality, it would an entirely separate discussion to to explain them. One thing i will confirm; the modern day scientists are idiots, although i don't fault scientists as a whole. Our current scientific "experts" are hired by governments and agencies for personal interests, not for the discovery of underlying truths that will help us identify who we are and what we have the potential to become. Scientists who speculate on intelligent design, sub-conscious and subliminal knowledge as manifested in dream states, deja vu, or odd coincidence are ridiculed and banned from the academic scientific community. It is more convenient to state we are just thinking animals because then there is no need to see human beings as any more than just disposable numbers, and there is no drive to weigh in moral and ethical considerations.
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Post by sh on Dec 27, 2011 1:58:12 GMT -5
Karla,
I believe we have been here since Homo habilis. Probably close to 2 million years.
And I believe that since then the human brain has been evolving on a different path from other creatures.
I believe that when the Aztecs spoke of Five Suns, or the Hopi of Four Worlds, they may have been referring to the extinction and appearance of species of the family Homo.
I personally believe the earlier Homos were much more advanced than we are.
Where we have focused all our attention on the physical world, our earlier ancestors were most likely dwelling in higher realms of consciousness, totally unconcerned with the physical world.
They had instincts that took care of their physical needs, without their having to be aware of it. Animals don't need to think to survive; they do so naturally.
The fact that today we are simply unaware of any higher realm, and dismiss the whole thing as mumbo jumbo makes me feel that something is very wrong.
Also, the fact that we need to think in order to survive, shows just how separated we are from our source.
-f
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Post by sh on Dec 27, 2011 2:16:52 GMT -5
By contrast with ancient people, all we're aware of today is our physical needs.
Today, we see technology as the indicator of how advanced a people are. This, I believe, is the ultimate foolery.
To me, the peoples of the Amazon rainforest are more advanced than we are because they don't need technology to survive.
We, on the other hand, have a whole superstructure constructed on top of the earth's natural environment. We can only survive within the superstructure, society.
I promise you, in the Amazon rainforest, none of us would survive a week. There's so many insects that either want to feed on our blood, or lay their eggs under our skin.. There's malaria, dengue, hepatitis, cholera, etc. There's tapeworms, amoeba, fungi and lice.
There are snakes as big as your car. There are snakes so poisonous that they can kill an adult human being in 5-10 minutes. And there are Jaguars that would eat us like we eat candy.
The rainforest looks the same all over, and you can't navigate by the sky or the horizon because you can't see them. They say that if you step a few yards away from the path, you will probably get lost in the jungle forever.
Also, some of the rivers are infested with meat eating fish who work as a team.
And there's hundreds of species of poisonous plants that you really don't want to be mistaking for food.
And what's more is, most of the animals we'd want to hunt, live above ground, in the forest canopy. So you better be able to climb giant trees and hang from vines.
Now here's what fascinates me. The Amazonian Indians are completely immune to insects and diseases of the jungle. This is remarkable because, we would probably die of disease and insects before we'd die of starvation.
Also, we get our food from the fridge or the grocery store. The Amazonians hunt.
So, you tell me, who is more advanced?
-f
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Post by sh on Dec 27, 2011 2:55:58 GMT -5
Now consider the conditions Homo habilis and Homo erectus lived in.
Very large predators roamed the earth back then. Terrifying monsters. We would have looked like defenseless sheep to them.
If you have ever encountered wolves out in the wild, you will know how terrifying a sabre-toothed tiger must have been.
And make no mistake, if you enter a predator's territory alone and unwittingly, it will very likely be the last thing you do.
Fortunately for us (or not), such predators are very near extinction today.
Presumably, the entire planet was unknown territory two million years ago. So we would have lived our whole lives lost in some jungle or desert.
I think we could survive 24 hours (tops!) under those conditions.
The fact that our early ancestors survived such conditions without any advanced technology is just ineffable! They were obviously operating from a whole different level.
The fact that our ancestors survived numerous Ice Ages, gives me chills.
I can only account for this, by believing that they must have been incredibly intelligent. So intelligent that we are mentally challenged, in comparison.
I imagine wolves and other predators would have probably feared and avoided these men (and women) at all costs.
One could however argue against all this by saying that plenty of animals have survived to the modern day, and none of them are particularly intelligent.
Obviously, every species on earth is adapted to certain conditions. If the conditions change too much too rapidly, their chance of survival drops significantly.
We humans on the other hand, are somehow oblivious to environmental conditions. Deserts, jungles, mountains, tropics or the arctic; it's all the same to us.
-f
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Post by grainnerhuad on Dec 27, 2011 11:50:24 GMT -5
Oh wow! I don't have time because I'm on the fly right now, but let me just say, I believe absolutely that the Aryans came from the region above Persia, on the Steppes as you thought and traded with the all of the kingdoms a good bit until Rome got greedy, instead of the tact the Goths( who were also Aryan most likeley) took which was attack, some of the Aryans went to the woods.
I will say I haven't read this whole thread which I will come back and do. But my beliefs on the mesoamerican population allow for your theory.
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Post by karlsie on Dec 27, 2011 17:39:17 GMT -5
I'll have to refer back to the Adam and Eve response, as once again i believe the key word is fear. I live in the wilderness. I was born and raised in Alaska, among moose, bears and wolves. I have never feared them, although i've had numerous encounters with them. Wild animals are surprisingly respectful as long as you are respectful toward them and as long as you understand their rules. Don't get between a mother and its young. Don't trespass in their breeding or feeding grounds. Don't demonstrate fear. Even small animals will turn aggressive if they smell fear.
I have heard it said numerous times during my stay in Central America, that the true revolution will come out of the jungles and the wilderness. This is why. They do not fear the loss of modern invention, for they have never had a direct need for it to enhance their abilities for survival. They do not fear the suppression of their religion because their religion rests deep inside them and can not be taken away. Even in the eyes of the children, you can see centuries of wisdom passed on from generation to generation. They remember their past. They know who they are. We can all become this way but first we must get past our fears and open our minds to the possibilities.
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Post by The Late Mitchell Warren on Dec 27, 2011 21:03:21 GMT -5
lol no worries, SH. I'm quite fascinated by what I've read thus far. I can't contribute much, as I'm a somewhat sheltered artist, but your world view is always welcome. I'm also always amazed that no matter what the subject is, Karla always jumps in and contributes a huge paragraph. That's why she's editor in chief. I have some rather strange views on the world...and am not sure I can eloquently contribute much on this thread. Maybe I'll try on the Adam & Eve thread.
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Post by sh on Dec 28, 2011 1:18:31 GMT -5
I think Karla might be humoring me a little bit. Karla, I see you've used the word fear countless times. Are you trying to imply that I'm afraid of death? And so my whole philosophy is based on my fear of death? I think my fear of death is balanced out by my awe and wonder at life. I don't think there is any way to avoid death. And I am not seeking such a thing. What I've been trying to imply is something much more abstract. And obviously, I wasn't able to communicate it well. -f
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Post by karlsie on Dec 28, 2011 1:24:47 GMT -5
Sh, i really hope you turn this particular subject into an article as you already have the background and research well documented. I think it's a great alternative viewpoint to present at the website, and with your articulate hand, you'll attract a lot of public interest.
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Post by sh on Dec 28, 2011 1:33:54 GMT -5
Anything for you, Karla.
I'll try my best.
-f
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Post by karlsie on Dec 28, 2011 1:57:33 GMT -5
Ha. You put in your comment just before i had finished mine. No, i'm not implying you're afraid of death. Fear of death is built into all of us as a survival instinct. All that i'm saying is that people block from their minds the potential to be more by harboring so many fears; and this is a generalized statement.
I'll say this frankly - i am reminded of the first acid trip that really gripped me - the one in which i realized i was no longer in the driver's seat and could no longer control the thoughts and impressions going through my head. This was a fearful moment. Every chemical experiment i had ever tried before had brought mainly heightened sensations and a relaxation of my thoughts, but never before had anything occurred when the walls came down between the conscious and sub-conscious.
What did i see? That the fields were so alive with magic, it seemed fairies were dancing among the flowers. I saw the animal spirits that each of us harbor in the face of my companions. I saw and heard the pulsars among the stars, and i was no longer afraid.
There is so much we could do, so much we could see if we would just let go, but people choose to ground themselves in disbelief. They choose to deny what their ears tell them and their eyes see. They are afraid to tap into their sub-conscious because they are afraid of what they will find there, but there's nothing there to fear. We are all connected, down to the lowest life form, and we are all a part of something greater and more wonderful than ourselves.
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Post by sh on Dec 28, 2011 3:11:48 GMT -5
Karla,
I sincerely hope that you get the opportunity to experience Ayahuasca (ie. DMT+Harmalas) at least once in your lifetime.
I would say that LSD and mushrooms are like children's toys in comparison.
I would say that if there is in fact such a thing as "holy," then Ayahuasca is without a doubt it.
The fact that "drugzz" have been so demonized, blinds us from seeing what we have right in front of us, in the shape of another lifeform. A very old, wise plant.
-f
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Post by sh on Dec 28, 2011 3:46:25 GMT -5
I really hate myself for being contrary all the time, but how can an animal fear death if it has no conscious notion of the concept?
Death is a mental construct. I think it's something you can think about, but never know. Death is nothing, or it might be anything.
As such, I believe that the fear of death is unique to mankind. I believe we don't want to let go of ourselves, and we perceive this as a fear of death.
Other animals, I think, have something different. They have an instinctual imperative for survival.
I don't believe an animal could ever commit suicide; that is, to consciously decide to end their life. It's an impossibility for them because it goes against their instincts. Just like eating hallucinogenic plants goes against their instincts.
I think animals are incapable of disobeying "god."
And for the record, I'd like to state that there are certain claims of animals ingesting plants containing hallucinogenic compounds, but I have yet to see one such claim backed up by any credible evidence.
Furthermore, a compound that is hallucinogenic for us, may be totally inactive for another species.
An example of this, is MAO in the human gut. Monoamine oxidase is an enzyme that breaks down the powerful psychoactive compound, DMT, in the human gut.
In order for DMT to be active orally, a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (ie. Harmine, Harmaline) has to be taken with it.
And what's fascinating, is that the Indians of the Amazon rainforest brew a hallucinogenic drink made from two plants that contain these compounds.
The bark of the Banisteriopsis caapi vine contains the beta-carbolines, Harmine and Harmaline.
The leaves of the Psychotria viridis (Chacruna) bush contain DMT.
Together they make Ayahuasca, or Yage.
As of yet, no one has been able to explain how these Amazonians found the secret of combining the two plants, out of a possible 50,000 species of plants.
Also noteworthy, is the fact that neither of these plants consumed on their own produce a "psychedelic" state.
Chacruna is completely inactive regardless of how much you ingest.
Caapi is active in it's own right, but definitely not psychedelic or hallucinogenic.
And when the Europeans came to the Amazon, the use of Ayahuasca was already prevalent among practically every tribe living in the rainforest.
-f
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Post by The Late Mitchell Warren on Dec 28, 2011 5:44:31 GMT -5
"really hate myself for being contrary all the time, but how can an animal fear death if it has no conscious notion of the concept?"
I don't agree with the notion that animals have no sense of death. In fact, it can be proven that animals have a fear of immediate death as they react with emotive behavior like horror, sadness and depression. (Though a fear of old age related death is debatable) I think we conclude that animals are not capable of deep thoughts because they do not communicate in our language.
In fact, I don't see how human can conclude anything about animal life, without first experiencing what they experience. These thoughts and many like them are one of the reasons I'm vegetarian. (Though I'm not exactly an animal rights activist like my wife. I'm more of the "philosophical vegetarian" like Ozymandius.
By the same logic, I'm not convinced that what we feel as human beings, and what we inflate through egotism, is anything more than just animal instinct. We have sex, we procreate, we raise children, eat sleep and die. The notions of love, the fear of death...it's something we conclude is unique to us, but not really proven one way or the other in the animal kingdom. In fact, some animal species do remain monogamous their entire lives. Is this an animal version of love? Is the fact that we stick to one mate our whole life nothing less than monogamous animal behavior? In fact, "love" could well be a natural side effect of excessive masturbation or repeated sexual intercourse. I'm not saying this as dogma...I'm merely pontificating that animal instinct and human logic may not be that far apart. Although, i'm more inclined to believe that animals have a sense of logic, not that humans are solely instinctual creatures.
"I don't believe an animal could ever commit suicide; that is, to consciously decide to end their life. It's an impossibility for them because it goes against their instincts. Just like eating hallucinogenic plants goes against their instincts."
Again, I'm not sure I would say that animals do not commit suicide. Most animals do not...most humans do not. In fact, I've read of cases where animal behavior is very suspicious, as if to suggest they may have lost the will to live. I certainly believe animals are capable of losing the will to live, just as mother animals are capable of "mercy-killing" their young.
"I think animals are incapable of disobeying god."
Perhaps...but perhaps they do transgress against the laws of nature, which in their minds are godly or their version of "godly."
Enjoying the discussion...but just feel compelled to share my dissenting view.
By the way, just for the record, I've tried salvia divinorum, pot and K2 and was disappointed. I'm sure if I did more, I would have seen visions. But...I tend to think if there really is anything godly or eternal out there, there would be a way to experience it without intentional brain manipulation. Which is not to suggest that I'm a square (if any of you have extra pot and are in Texas.....hahahah)
But I still see these drugs as recreational. Although, I have read theories suggesting that Apostle John was drunk and hallucinated the entire book of Revelation. So perhaps they were prominent in ancient history.
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Post by sh on Dec 28, 2011 6:30:11 GMT -5
Your dissenting view is quite welcome, Mitch. You bless me with your comments, and I am in your debt.
The thing you said about humans not being able to know anything about what animals perceive is true. But as I've said before, our perception can get out of our self, and go into a rock, a chair, a mouse, a house, or another person even.
This can be disputed, labelled a hallucination or delusion. The only way to know for sure is to experience it first-hand.
I'm sorry that you never had a breakthrough with Salvia. Perhaps your method of ingestion was inefficient or your dose was too small.
Let me tell you, the experience of being taken by Salvia Divinorum is so crazy that it will definitely leave you saying "whatthefuckjusthappened!?" or something to that effect, over and over, and over again.
You mention monogamy. All I can say is that I don't believe we can reason out the behavior of animals. They aren't reasonable. I think, they don't perform acts consciously for a "reason." I don't think they have any notion of purpose. To me, all of this is the mark of the self.
IMO, to be able to act deliberately, to choose consciously and to be aware of purpose is the quality of being god, as in "khod," the self.
As for humans, I think monogamy is a sham. In my opinion, 99% of people will cheat on their spouse, regardless of whether they are in love with their spouse or not. We seem to have excess sexual energy, somehow. Or could it be that we are deprived of all other pleasures, so we indulge in meaningless sex? Who knows. I believe most men have a strange urge to "possess" every woman they can find. I think we're just too self-indulgent, really.
I believe, to be truly monogamous requires a kind of inner strength and will that is very rare among our species today. I think it requires a sense of unwavering purpose. I think if you can stay celibate, then you can definitely stay monogamous.
You also mentioned the phrase "animal mind." To me, the word mind means self-reflection; I see the mind as a large inventory of names of things we know.
As such, I don't believe animals have a mind, in the sense that we have one.
Also keep in mind (pun or no pun), that the mind speaks. I believe the voice we all have in our head is usually the voice of our mind.
To say that animals have a mind is to say that they can understand language in some form. This is highly doubtful.
I ask, why would they need language when they are one with the universe? Couldn't we assume that they communicate telepathically or something?
You say that animals react in the presence of imminent death. This is true. But does this mean that they consciously know what they are reacting to? Do "they" even know that "they" are reacting to something in the first place? If they do, then they are self-aware.
And last but not least, it is completely possible to achieve the states brought about by psychedelics, while sober. It requires discipline and sustained effort; it requires the expert use of will. I believe that psychedelics can show us how to master our will.
Sure, some drugs can be recreational. But some of them are really not.
I believe certain psychedelics, like Ayahuasca and Iboga, can change a man (or woman) for good. I was never the same again after I ingested a particularly large overdose of Ayahuasca once.
I experienced what seemed like an eternity lost in some hell-world, suffering endless agony. The world kept being pulled from under my feet. There was nothing I could cling to. I was floating in some cold, uninhabited abyss, surrounded by darkness. And I never really came down from the "trip."
In the weeks and months following the experience, my dreams started to become really strange. I would always know that I was dreaming; and yet the dreams seemed absolutely real to me.
Later on, my dreams started to impinge on my waking reality. I would experience deja-vu, constantly. I saw what they call "hallucinations," wherever I looked. Objects kept materializing out of nowhere, and disappearing into thin air. I would melt into the couch or the bed I was sitting on. Sometimes, I felt like I was a dream, in another dream, dreamt by a shadow. Sometimes, I'd realize that I was other people who I didn't know. I was constantly hearing voices in my head, that I knew weren't my own. This was when I knew without a doubt that I was going off the deep end.
And today, I no longer know who I am. Sometimes, I desperately long for my self. I yearn for it's warmth and security, for it's predictability and rationality. But all I have is a distant memory, and a feeling of something once known, but practically forgotten. Like a dream.
I believe I am dead.
And so I roam the earth aimlessly, searching for something undefined, and unknown.
"Breathe, breathe in the air. Don't be afraid to care.."
-f
P.S. I really don't ever talk about these things, because people immediately think I'm out of my mind, which is probably true. But I guess with you guys that ship has already sailed..
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